Nothing Wins the Justice

As some of you know, JB is heading back to the US shortly, there to continue making software history under the monolithic banner of Microsoft.

Before leaving, however, he was good enough to take the time to pop on down to Newtown and have a nice lunch with myself, Ethistan, Ash and Praeteritio.

After lunch, I got to give 'im a proper send-off with an exceedingly fun skateboarding session all up and down the Sydney University, followed by some carpark shreddin' and a bit of lounging with cold drinks in the fabulous new sun-chairs they've set up in our ampitheatre.

It was great to see you around again, JB ol' pal. Thanks for the skatin' fun, and for coming to New Year's.

Be safe, and we all wish you a fabulous trip back to Seattle.

GrubLord: It's not 'til I took another look at this that I realised the camera really does add ten pounds.

'Cept everyone else's ten pounds also ended up on Ethistan somehow.

RJorb: Good seeing you, JB. Let us know when you're back in town next.

Also, Grub, whatever you're talking about in your above comment... I don't see it.

GrubLord: I dunno, I don't usually notice he's overweight, but in this pic he looks like a total chubburger.

Mind you, I wouldn't expect you porky RJorbs to notice.

RJorb: I'd say he looks to be of quite moderate weight in that picture.

But then, I would expect you gaunt Grubs to have a skewed perspective of reality.

Yarkin: Grub, in future I hope you stop and think about whether these insulting attempts at humour might be hurtful.

GrubLord: Thanks, Yarksie, I will. To my great delight, however, I have begun noticing (after a brief period where I was terrified to say anything about anybody for fear that they would react the way you have been lately) that the majority of my close friends are able to distinguish a bit of ribbing from a genuine value judgement.

He and I are quite close, even though we haven't been meeting up as often as I would like lately, and from our familiarity I can be reasonably certain that this statement will be understood in the way that it was meant. (FYI, the only thing I said was that he looks fat in this picture, which - as RJorb points out - is a personal opinion about the picture which doesn't reflect his real-life fatness or lack thereof. Saying he's overweight is a statement of fact, and my WiiFit confirms it - but even this is subjective, since BMI does not account for muscle mass. At any rate, just like this post here, it's a bit of harmless teasing between friends.

Admittedly, I was being a bit on-the-nose in the comments above, but this is because we have discussed this subject before and he already knows my true feelings. Due to his extreme self-discipline in maintaining a good daily exercise regime and the fact that he's a big bully who loves punching people (see what I did there? Another joke!), Ethistan actually has rather an admirable physique, and anyone who makes fun of him for it (including myself, when he takes his inevitable revenge) is more likely than not to discover the hard (and punchy!) way that it's almost all muscle.

He's got no reason to be self-conscious about his weight, and so I doubt the above is terribly hurtful, but if we allow for the fact that he might very well overreact from seeing the above in a state of emotional distress which caused him to overlook the good-will between us which typically allows him to safely believe that I would never try to deliberately damage his good name, and must hence be joking... even in that circumstance, I stand fully prepared to issue a public apology and even make a lengthy comment like this one in praise of his obvious manly qualities (except in bed).

The above was also a joke, FYI. Sure, it wasn't terribly funny (Ash, please take note!), but it nevertheless carries a certain camaraderie, and I think we would all be the poorer if Ethistan and myself were to be too afraid to make a poor joke of this nature even when just amongst friends (Ash, it's OK, you can stop doing it... please!).

You've established yourself firmly as an opponent of such collegiate humour, and as someone who requires some finesse to communicate with because your fragile emotions require careful handling... I appreciate that, and have consequently ceased to bother you with either my juvenile banter or any statement of value that isn't carefully screened beforehand... but with the majority of my friends it's still OK to make an ill-considered statement and simply laugh it off, because they know that my thesis is on a completely unrelated topic and hence any opinion I express on a different subject is my largely unresearched private assertion, expressed in part to receive feedback on the notion from those more-in-the-know, and subject to revision in the face of a superior argument, and to being recanted swiftly should it do harm to someone whose well-being I care about, which includes everyone on NWTJ.

Also, you're just touchy because you're more overweight than Ethistan, and a darn sight less muscular...

OH MY GOD WHAT HAVE I DONE?!

RJorb: To be fair, you're often just as insulting to people who aren't likely to laugh it off.

I guess you're lucky that you have friends who tolerate you being an ass, eh?

Ash: Except in bed.

RJorb: Heh.

GrubLord: I think my increasing ass-itude is largely a reaction to a corresponding increase thereof in my environment... not sure what brought it on, really, but of late a lot of people I know have been being asses to me on quite a routine basis.

One argument I had to reflect upon in particular when I wrote the above was the fact that I associate crass jokes, disrespectful breaches of etiquette and out-and-out insults with camaraderie and friendship. Why should that be, I wondered.

But then, how could I not? I can hardly get through a day of work with Ash, a social occasion with Ethistan, or a games day of some sort with Elo, without being the recipient of one or another stinging barb. Usually several. A typical Nightfall game, with all three of these characters present, is a bubbling stew of epithets, condescension, repetitive belching and random physical violence.

Put that way, it's not terribly appealing being around them, but I'm pretty thick-skinned about these things, and anyway I know they're not doing it out of hatred. Ethistan just has a lot of excess energy, and precious few opportunities to indulge his vice of jokes-relating-to-your-mother. Elo hates me 'cause I'm beautiful, and Ash wishes he were me. We're friends, and I forgive them their eccentricities. That's what friends are for.

They'd just better be ready to be called fat on NWTJ, or presented as closet homosexuals who wear lipstick, in return.

Lunzo: The camera doesn't add 5Kg - that's an urban myth (WTF is this pounds you speak of). You just got Eth at the edge of shot with a slightly wide angle - which is where the most distortion is - and more importantly in a really unflattering pose.

GrubLord: Undoubtedly true.

GrubLord: FYI, I was using this lens, which is a very cheap way to get a good portrait lens but, alas, at the cost of some distortion at the edges.

Good catch, Lunzo, that's exactly why he looks weird to me in this photo.

I didn't realise this lens had that much edge distortion, actually... going to have to take that into account in future.

RJorb: All I can say is that negativity breeds responses in kind, Grub.

Also, regarding the above picture, I'd say the three very thin people across the table from Ethistan probably play a part in any skewed perspectives.

GrubLord: Wasn't that what I was saying?

I guess we're both right...

Or are you calling me a Negative Nancy?

RJorb: You certainly did say it. So, how would you stop people being crass, disrespectful or insulting towards you?

Here's a hint. The answer isn't being an ass.

Lunzo: That isn't a wide angle. Maybe it's just a bad shot of Ethistan. Aim for his good side next time .

GrubLord: Lun: It's not a wide angle, no - but you're still right about the distortion. That's why I linked the page: "This new AF-S 50 has more linear distortion than any other fixed Nikon 50mm ever made." Guess I should've read a bit more about it 'fore I bought it. Was still a bargain, though... and it's still one of my favourite lenses.

Jorb: It's the natural progression of these things to escalate. Eventually, once it's gotten super-bad, someone will say or do something truly horrible, and we're all going to realise Soylent Green is people, turn off our Surrogates and go live normal lives again.

They say the unexamined life is not worth living and all that, but to be honest I haven't really given this whole asshole tug-of-war we're in much analytic thought until now. The by-line in my head goes something like this: "Oh, so we're acting like dicks now? OK, if people want to be dicks, I can be a dick too."

What can I say? I'm a true social chameleon!

If at some point people want to be cool again, that's cool too. I can work with that. But until then, I don't want to hear people whining about my "insulting attempts at humour".

It may be the saintly thing to do to ignore what other people are doing and be good and holy at all times, but last time I checked I wasn't Jesus.

Yarkin: A readiness to engage in conflict over issues important to me is hardly emotional fragility. I am defending a friend against an unfair comment. Among other reasons, this is important to me because I have been the victim of a lack of such support in the past. I happen to believe that friendship is based upon respect and sincerity, and I doubt I’m alone in that. I’m sure Ethistan does understand that your comments were a joke, but a joke made at somebody’s expense is never completely innocent. Getting fit and looking good was clearly something he put his heart into, so naturally it’s a topic deserving sensitivity.

You refuse to accept responsibility for your behaviour, blaming it all on those around you, and then you accuse me of whining? I suggest you engage in some self-reflection, without the rose-coloured mirror.

You’re not doing yourself any favours by taking your objectionable insult and childishly using it on anyone who takes issue with it. As RJorb said, you are lucky to have tolerant friends, but that tolerance appears not to be everlasting.

GrubLord: A readiness to take offence at the littlest things is indeed a sign of emotional fragility. I referred to the fact that you're ready to get combative about any slight, real or imagined, and hence that I need to worry about anything I say to you being misinterpreted and used to start an argument. Like this one.

Also, if you'll please read what I actually said, you'll see that I take full responsibility for being something of a jerk myself, but that I also don't feel that anyone should particularly mind me saying they look fat - particularly not if that person routinely makes off-colour remarks about my mother.

Ethistan knows he's not actually fat, and I know he hasn't actually slept with my mother. Statements to the contrary are therefore easily understood to be spoken in jest.

I've never given anyone any less than respect and sincerity when they have sought it, but in normal social situations I have as much right as anyone to observe our current social status quo of bad jokes, ribbing, asshattery and - yes - childishness!

teh_saq: When I orîgînaŀŀÿ read ÿoür fîrsŧ commenŧ Yarkîn I ŧhoüghŧ îŧ was faîr büŧ possîbŀÿ ünnecessarÿ sînce boŧh Eŧh and RJ are abŀe ŧo defend ŧhemseŀves. However gîven ÿoür fürŧher reasonîng I ŧhînk ŧhaŧ îŧ was faîr enoügh.

And Grüb I'd have ŧo dîsagree wîŧh ÿoür conŧenŧîon ŧhaŧ "Iŧ's ŧhe naŧüraŀ progressîon of ŧhese ŧhîngs ŧo escaŀaŧe", ŧheÿ don'ŧ have ŧo escaŀaŧe and end wîŧh bîŧŧer feeŀîngs aŀŀ aroünd. Dîsagreemenŧs and dîscüssîons wîŧh peopŀe cŀose ŧo ÿoü (frîends, famîŀÿ and spoüses) reaŀŀÿ shoüŀdn'ŧ be a compeŧîŧîon ŧhaŧ ÿoü aîm ŧo wîn. Unŀîke argüîng wîŧh randoms aŧ work or even on ŧhe înŧerwebż ÿoü shoüŀd aîm for ŧhe wîn-wîn scenarîo sînce ÿoü're goîng ŧo have ŧo ŀîve wîŧh ŧhe peopŀe ÿoü're argüîng wîŧh for some ŧîme ŧo come.

GrubLord: You're right that it shouldn't be like that, but it is the natural progression in the sense that - if someone doesn't show the good sense to cut it off at the source - that's exactly what will happen.

Whatever the source of the disrespectful way many of us talk to one another is, however, I don't believe that it's me. Admittedly, I use foul language more than I used to nowadays, but to attack me as some kind of mastermind is ridiculous.

Besides, my solution may not be ideal, but it's certainly win-win: I just don't let it bother me, and expect others to do the same. When somebody says something I would ordinarily consider hurtful, I consider it a part of the weird banter that has become our way, and respond in kind.

If anything, I reduce the escalation, since I insult people less often and less directly than they do me.

And that makes me the bad guy?

Lunzo: Grubs, give it up. In this instance you're wrong, and you're being a dick.

Don't bother making fat jokes. People who can normally handle fun at their expense will be affected by them. It plants a seed of doubt in their head about their body image that takes a long time to go away. Fat jokes aren't even that funny anyway.

How do I know this? I've been on both the receiving and giving end of fat jokes, and seen how it's affected the butt of the joke. I've also had people I respect both sacred and secular telling me that making fat jokes is inappropriate.

If anyone reading this has been on the receiving end of one of my fat jokes I apologise unreservedly for my thoughtlessness.

GrubLord: You're right of course, Lun.

Moreover, it shouldn't take so many good people yelling at me to have me do something I already ought to be, namely reversing this trend of acting like a jerk and attempting to trivialise everything I don't want to deal with.

Besides, if even Lunzo has had self-image problems related to his weight, then perhaps I just don't realise how prevalent poor body-image really is. RJorb's tongue-in-cheek comment is right on the dot - I have a skewed image of reality... and it doesn't help that I'm unwilling to see it challenged.

Because I am so often on the receiving end of the same thing I now put others through, I chose to take Yarkin's initial post as antagonistic and lash out at him, starting this whole argument. He's right, however, in that nothing I've said actually excuses (nor is objectively relevant to) my own behaviour. However desensitised I may be to such trash-talk, and whatever my reasons, I should still be taking the time to think about what I'm doing and whom it might be hurting rather than just saying anything that pops into my head for no better reason than that I assume I'll be forgiven if it turns out to be offensive.

To address everyone as briefly as possible, therefore:

Ethistan, I apologise for both the comment I made above on your appearance in the photo, and for the implied unflattering situation in the photo's text bubbles. None of it was intended as a personal attack.

RJorb, you're right. I'm not helping anyone with all this negativity, and it's better to set a good example than go with the flow. I'm sorry for taking the liberty of addressing you in a physically demeaning way. I know you understand that there's no malice in it, but that doesn't make it any less wrong for me to abuse our friendship to get away with insulting you to your face.

Ash, I'm sorry for disparaging your sense of humour. As evidenced in this very post, your comic timing has improved greatly. It remains, however, no less inappropriate.

Yarkin, you were trying to help me reflect on my behaviour, and I turned the full force of it on you instead. This kind of hurtful humour does real damage, even if it is under the surface, and while my reaction has been to ignore it and propagate it, you were courageous enough to take a stand against it. I shouldn't have lambasted you for that, and I certainly shouldn't have called your reaction into question. Having likewise experienced the lack of such support first-hand, it was callous in the extreme for me to vilify what you are doing. I'm sorry.

I should also apologise to Yarkin's wife. She is right that I have made some personal statements about Yarkin in this post which I ought not to have. I typically never delete or censor content, but I am willing to expunge the offending material if this is desired. Further, while I found the acid tone, harsh judgements and veiled threats in her message disturbing, I do appreciate that she nevertheless took the time to write it. I also agree with her final contention that I owe many people apologies, to which I have tried to make a start both here and privately.

Lunzo, thank you for trying to defuse the situation, helping to lay bare the actual technical issue responsible for the slight distortion of Ethistan in the above image, and for setting a good example without moralising.

Saq, thank you for the same, and for being helpful and constructive. Whereas typically a 'win-win' situation is ideal, however, I believe that in this case it's important for me to lose this particular argument. As is reasonably clear from everyone's combined arguments and the vacuousness (despite length) of my own, it is I who is in the wrong and ought to make a change.

Finally, JB, I'm sorry that I caused this lengthy argument to take root in what was meant to be your farewell post. I'm going to lock the discussion at this point (though I will reopen it if asked), so as to forestall any further hijacking.

In the meantime, since it is not enough to simply apologise, I will give careful thought to all that has been said here and endeavour to make a change to the callous way in which I comport myself, as well as to the level of forethought I engage in before I speak.

Thank you all for caring enough to make your feelings known, and I hope that I can satisfy your concerns by improving myself in future.

GrubLord: Post reopened at Yarkin's request.

Further, I have posted the message from Jess below. She refers to some out-of-context examples which I consider unfair and hurtful, but rather than respond and get defensive, it's better that I practice what I preach and remain silent. I have made a minor edit to the message - namely, I have removed the header complaining of not being able to post in this discussion, and I have elided NaughtyNurse and Yarkin's real names.

Guest: You have been nothing but unkind and disrespectful towards us and our relationship, with NaughtyNurse, our wedding saga and now personally attacking Yarkin in public. You are lucky he puts up with you but he certainly doesn't have to like anything you have done.

Your comment was made in a public setting. It was up for criticism. As you can see, Yarkin was not the only one who found your first comment and all of those following distasteful. There has been a general outpouring of support for Yarkin's point in this case (in private also). I imagine that all of these people would also have been offended if you had called their marriage a sham.

If you think it is fair to personally criticise Yarkin in such a public domain, I will gladly provide him with a list of what I consider to be your many personality flaws (obvious even to an outsider). However, I think what you have done is unfair and don't wish to retaliate in kind.

Regarding your opinion of Yarkin being emotionally fragile, I disagree both personally and professionally. I see much more that is abnormal and maladaptive about your emotional capacity and expression.

I think you owe many people apologies, but I won't hold my breath.

GrubLord: Please note also that Sunday, as always, allows Guest posting. As such, anyone may log in via the box to the left using the username "Guest" and no password.

RJorb: Well, everyone's now had a good chance to vent their thoughts and frustrations. Grub has apologised, and indicated that he will give more thought to his words and actions in the future.

As such, any further discussion is only likely to be repetitive and inflammatory. I suggest we lock this thread again.

GrubLord: I agree. If you must continue to comment, out of respect for JB, please put it in the post I just put up myself.

Yarkin: Grub, you have correctly interpreted my intentions and, I believe, those of the others. It's a shame you had to tarnish that by painting someone else as the bad guy.

Jess' examples may be out of context in this discussion, but not in a private email. Had she posted here she would have addressed only the current issues. She agreed to have the email posted publicly because you expressed your opinion on it without showing the content.

Her email may have been harsh, but she is a fair judge, and if you give her something positive to work with you'll find her generous.

GrubLord: Then I can only hope my determination to change this bad behaviour will suffice.

I don't agree that I 'painted her as the bad guy' by referring to her message. I've unqualifiedly admitted that I am the bad guy here.

That doesn't make it OK to threaten me with some kind of psychoanalysis and use her profession as a platform to insult me, though, whether it's in public or private.

In order to heal this problem between us, we have all got to stop throwing stones.

Lunzo: I'm glad everything is resolved now.

*sniff* I love you guys .

GrubLord: Me too. Hugs all around!



... now clear orf! This post be closed!